tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post7461644951355268585..comments2024-03-07T09:25:09.142-08:00Comments on Long-Forgotten: The Ghostland Around Us, Beneath UsHBG2http://www.blogger.com/profile/05073387557562504315noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-70847552873366204112022-11-19T19:39:14.041-08:002022-11-19T19:39:14.041-08:00
This probably gets further discussed in the futur...<br />This probably gets further discussed in the future, but looking back to here from 2022, thoughts at this point…<br /><br />The overall irrationality of the interior spaces certainly seem to be the point, regardless of paradigm. Disorientation! Sounds like a fun game. As a design, the stretching ‘room’ doesn’t even line up under the cupola, since there are actually the two, so true perspectives were never possible, or desirable. The distorted windows…as seen ‘through’ the ‘translucent floor’…also establish that it is nightime now... and forever! Hahaha. What a tour de force that second room on our tour is! <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-30297762365597163262018-03-28T18:10:36.698-07:002018-03-28T18:10:36.698-07:00The Mansion during the ride seems to be only a two...The Mansion during the ride seems to be only a two-story house compared to the three-story facades at both DL and WDW. <br /><br />As for the idea that the mansion looks like a different house from the back, you can see the back of the Mansion at DL while you're in the queue. It's completely blank, with no windows or doors...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-84104211883121176782018-03-28T18:03:45.760-07:002018-03-28T18:03:45.760-07:00The Stretching Room is a portal from which guests ...The Stretching Room is a portal from which guests "cross over" to the Spirit World version of the Mansion. Notice the portrait hallway right after, with its windows and chicken exit door (in the same style as the doors in the Upstairs Corridor), does not at all match the exterior of the building we entered from the "Living World." So the transition occurs before the Limbo area. <br /><br />The Mausoleum is another portal between the two worlds. Remember the sign that used to be at the end of the ride: "DEAD END! Prepare to Exit to the Living World." - Mike S.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-74139024149230971942018-02-17T14:42:10.465-08:002018-02-17T14:42:10.465-08:00This comment doesn't help us understand anythi...This comment doesn't help us understand anything better, but I thought it was kinda interesting: in a later post, you conjectured that there may have been plans to have a stretching portrait on each of the 8 walls in the stretching gallery, instead of the four we're familiar with. You cited as possible evidence one of the concept pieces in this article, the sketch of the garrett in which the corners of 2 paintings can be seen on either side of elderly Constance. I thought it was interesting that the sketch also includes the 8 window design of the garrett. If they did scrap the idea of 8 paintings, I wonder if the 8 window idea was scrapped around the same time. The paintings and windows don't have a direct connection that I can think of, but maybe it was more an artistic balance kind of thing. After all, the windows all appear to be on the same walls as the paintings in the finished attraction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-29628204491245671282017-09-06T09:56:54.379-07:002017-09-06T09:56:54.379-07:00The problem is, they designed that interior space ...The problem is, they designed that interior space knowing full well what the outside of the house looked like. Why didn't they match the attic interior a little better to the actual design of the house exterior, knowing that the attic would be the exit point?HBG2https://www.blogger.com/profile/05073387557562504315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-24531117869394295902017-09-06T00:15:54.391-07:002017-09-06T00:15:54.391-07:00I think I have a logical explanation on why the ro...I think I have a logical explanation on why the roof looks that way. The exterior of the mansion doesn't have a tall, steep roof, but on the ride, the attic appears to have slanted walls, implying a tall steep roof. So they decided to make the outside match the interior.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14818713586238780591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-26607288588338032292015-12-27T12:25:46.350-08:002015-12-27T12:25:46.350-08:00The bit about the ballroom dancers and the table b...The bit about the ballroom dancers and the table being an example of why the PW theory doesn't fit in there is interesting. Cause I mean, the table that Caesar and Co. are sitting at for the b-day party clearly exists for them. So that part could be PW. Maybe the ballroom is a mix of both viewa? Or the Imagineers didn't count on us looking that closely so they weren't consistent?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-70088365687097081882015-08-05T04:10:25.872-07:002015-08-05T04:10:25.872-07:00In regards to the dancers, I think it's clear ...In regards to the dancers, I think it's clear that these characters are aware they're dead, so I just figure they're simply content with dancing through the furniture, knowing it'll never be in the way of a ghost.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-19753386296059809582015-05-06T03:55:00.165-07:002015-05-06T03:55:00.165-07:00The "Brought-to-Disneyland" idea could f...The "Brought-to-Disneyland" idea could fit with the cemetery if we on the contrary think that Disneyland was BUILT ALL AROUND a preexistent mansion. That's not really impossible: if they had made maps for a New-Orleans area before, and that BAM in the landscape they bought there was already a New-Orleans-like mansion, why destroying it and rebuilding another which looks just like it afterward ? They just let it the way it was. Also, they had no authorization of moving or destroying the abandonned public graveyard, so they didn't. It's just right there, in the center of the Park, but Disney Imagineers are not allowed to change it. And anyway, the ghosts wouldn't agree. Also, we could assume that the Mansion originally had only the ghosts of its inhabitants ("Master Gracey" Ghost Host, Madam Leota, the two Brides, and so on), and maybe a few preexistent graveyards ghosts. Then Walt Disney decided to send messages all around the world, about that there was a haunted mansion for free for any homeless ghost (in a way that reminds the Walt Disney Comics Digest story "Spooky Tenants", which is readable for free on Haunted Mansion Wiki).Achille Talonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11636339293230261724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-32607059905202518042014-10-24T11:24:09.494-07:002014-10-24T11:24:09.494-07:00HBG2, I've stumbled upon your site. What a tr...HBG2, I've stumbled upon your site. What a treasure trove! Thanks for your caretaking of the Mansion.<br /><br />I had only one thought to add regarding the inconsistent architecture of the attic exterior verses the mansion facade: It's possible that it was the interior design of the attic that dictated that the extra in the graveyard turned out way that it did. <br /><br />If one takes the mockup you created of an exterior which could have been harmonious with the actual mansion facade, and then imagine what that would look like on the inside, without the slanted roof framing or dormer windows, it would feel a lot like just another room, not an attic.<br /><br />Just wanted to share that idea. Thanks again!<br />BritainBritain Morrishttp://www.britaincmorris.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-14766922724935554352014-02-13T14:16:45.353-08:002014-02-13T14:16:45.353-08:00Actually, the light in the cupola was added with H...Actually, the light in the cupola was added with Haunted Mansion Holiday. It's supposed to be "Zero", the ghost dog, who's roaming back and forth up there. I don't remember which year he was added; I'm pretty sure it was after the first year (2001).<br /><br />They take it out when the Mansion is in its non-holiday form.refurbmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11980350788913137397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-26550882975247238032012-05-23T17:43:10.477-07:002012-05-23T17:43:10.477-07:00Thanks for the kind words, Tab.
It's called a...Thanks for the kind words, Tab.<br /><br />It's called a "hall tree," and there's an excellent photo here:<br />http://www.flickr.com/photos/lorenjavier/3683926853/<br /><br />It doesn't seem to have much significance. For a long time it had a man's cane hanging on it as well as the lady's bonnet. I suggested once that either by accident or design these props pointed to the two characters originally populating the attic, since the Hatbox Ghost had a cane.HBG2https://www.blogger.com/profile/05073387557562504315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-69363197834165059942012-05-23T17:18:38.499-07:002012-05-23T17:18:38.499-07:00I've been reading your blog for a little over ...I've been reading your blog for a little over a month, and think it is truly amazing. I've been a Mansion fanatic for at least ten years now, and have learned even more from your blog.<br /><br />This question isn't relevant to this particular post, but I wasn't sure where else I could post it. Do you have any good photos of that vanity that stands at the far-left side of the ballroom balcony? The one just before you enter the attic? I know it consists of a mirror, desk, and several hats hanging off of it. It seems like a topic you'd be interested in investigating.Tabbicusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-10012776255191299102012-05-21T09:22:11.496-07:002012-05-21T09:22:11.496-07:00Although it's still not "canon," the...Although it's still not "canon," there has been and still is a persistent understanding that the Anaheim house was built around 1800-1810, early enough to be witness to the War of 1812. It's the Sea Captain—Jean Lafitte subtext, which still seems to be alive. As for the immaculate exterior, it's not just the building, but the grounds are well-kept and lights are lit for your visit. How so, if it's an abandoned, reputedly haunted house? I've come to accept the butlers and maids as "real" actors in the show. One can imagine Constance (or whoever) setting up an endowment to fund the house's maintenance, run by a hired, independent executor, so that keeping the place in shape is almost like a small local business, motivated in part by civic pride (we'll tolerate no urban blight here!). None of that is far-fetched. So the grounds and most of the lower floor are well kept, but the upstairs they have truly abandoned. Haunted, you know.<br /><br />Also, whether we're happy about it or not, the Constance addition suggests a date of abandonment in the late 19th c., since her wedding dates are explicitly given, and the last one is in 1877. Her portrait as an older widow downstairs indicates that she lived here for at least a couple of decades after the wedding. There is also the terrible state of the ballroom, to the point where railings are collapsing. As we have seen, there is more than one possible explanation for the data, but the 1877 date makes a "present" date of 1850-60 rather difficult. One solution, of course, is to curse the modern Imagineers and mentally throw out the Constance addition as a violation.<br /><br />Your explanation of the attic is sensible, but still, they could have parked the discrepancy in more than one place. They could have made the interior of the attic exactly as it is, as atticky as can be, but then designed the exterior you see after you exit to match the actual exterior out front, and I don't suppose anyone would have minded much.<br /><br />The Victorian age was crawling with eccentrics, so odd things like bat-shaped weather vanes don't bother me too much.HBG2https://www.blogger.com/profile/05073387557562504315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-91656264410291203252012-05-21T01:29:24.808-07:002012-05-21T01:29:24.808-07:00In regards to "the Mansion being entirely too...In regards to "the Mansion being entirely too new inside" (Disneyland or Walt Disney World) That comment is true ONLY if you believe your visit is taking place in modern times or the present, And it;s NOT. <br /><br />New Orleans Square (when built and up until a decade ago) was to represent the Crescent City during the 1850-1860 period. While in New Orleans Square, you are in the mid 19Th Century. So the Disneyland manse, is a home that has been shuttered for about a 10-20 year period. This still allows the Disneyland Mansion's architecture to be period correct. So the interior would have aged and become dusted and worn, but not to an extreme level. And I think the guests imagination allows for the interior to feel more rundown looking than the Imagineers have actually made it. We know why the house looks pristine on the outside--but it's OK it is. As guests visiting New Orleans Square in the mid 19Th Century, we know it's Haunted. That's what it's called..........the people in these parts call it that. But we aren't supposed to know the specifics. It's a mystery. And it should be. Each guests can wonder on their own--WHY is the mansion abandoned? What Happened? What could have happened to make people leave this beautiful house!1?? That's part of what makes the experience eerie. <br /><br />(the Ghost Hearse in front is awful --it ruins the mysterious feel and turns the experience into a tacky (any amusement spook house gag) --the same way WDW's Pirates entrance has been re-done--with pirate skeletons in tacky childish poses)<br /><br />Ok--The Florida mansion: I'll admit, the bat weather vane is kinda on the fence with being tacky. But, the manor houses built during the early 1800's up until the start of the Civil War in the Hudson River valley were often rather eccentric. People referred to them as "rich men folly's" These mixed many designs as they were trying to emulated palaces and estate homes of Europe. So when we see this Dutch-Colonial Gothic home, we think--maybe from the face-like decorative wrought iron and pointed architectural elements that maybe the owner builder was a tad eccentric--like so many of Poe's characters who also lived during this time frame. Liberty Square is suppose to be the Colonial period so we have a time range of the late 1690's thru about 1790's. The WDW mansion is a 1800-1830 style structure which is really the Federal period (or Biedermeier )But I think Imagineering implies that it must have been built slightly earlier than that--enough so that this mansion too, has been abandoned for some unknown reason. Long enough that the people of Liberty Square refer it to be indeed haunted. So this mansion shouldn't be too worn down. <br /><br />I'm glad that the mansions creators were subtle in the buildings designs and that they chose to make them architecturally authentic. And that they chose to creature unique structures for both parks.<br /><br />On the problem with the attic not matching the actual exterior of the house: What probably happened --since both mansions interiors were fabricated at the same time, it was probably more important for the Imagineer's to make the rider understand that they are in the attic --so the designers used strong attitct type imagery--smaller windows, sloped or mansard roof, widows walk trim--unfinished walls and rafters etc. This was more important I think to the interior show than reminding guests at that point what the Mansions exteriors look like on the outside. <br /><br />Another thing we have to remember is that these structures were built by film makers. People who for years have blended eras and styles to create specific moods and atmospheres for the movies and TV. And Disneyland and WDW are no different.MIKE COZARThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616421722228113410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-47036299224359237322012-05-18T18:01:38.130-07:002012-05-18T18:01:38.130-07:00Speaking of architectural nerds, if I could go bac...Speaking of architectural nerds, if I could go back in time and recover a long-gone piece of paper, one that I'd love to have is a drawing my brother did, shortly after the HM opened. He was 16, I was 14. After we had ridden perhaps a grand total of six or seven times over the first couple of visits, he drew a rough floorplan of the ride. We knew the shape of the show building from those Sam McKim souvenir maps. Well sir, he just about nailed it perfectly, as I recall. Amazing architectural instincts.HBG2https://www.blogger.com/profile/05073387557562504315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-74431423868822158422012-05-18T17:55:59.789-07:002012-05-18T17:55:59.789-07:00I agree with your post far more than I disagree. ...I agree with your post far more than I disagree. "You're entering a sort of ghostly dreamworld" is as reasonable a hypothesis as any. Of course, as can be seen from <i>Alice in Wonderland,</i> even in a dream there can be internal consistency (aka "rules"). Architectural features never change right before Alice's eyes. Alice must shrink or grow to fit through too small or too large openings; she can't just pop through magically. And so forth. Since no single paradigm accounts for every last thing in the HM, there will probably always be room for alternative explanations. Artists create worlds, but those worlds cohere, so it's reasonable to pursue (if you wish) what sort of reality was in the back of the Imagineers' minds, and it's reasonable to suppose something <i>was</i> there. You never feel like you're in an anything-goes wackyland.HBG2https://www.blogger.com/profile/05073387557562504315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-83557157948435095842012-05-18T17:11:28.555-07:002012-05-18T17:11:28.555-07:00I guess I have been an architecture nerd since chi...I guess I have been an architecture nerd since childhood, but I recognized from the very beginning the differences between the inside and out, including the fact that what we saw was too big to fit inside that little house.<br /><br />I was perplexed by the exterior attic differences because they were quite obvious. Initially, I put it down to ghostly illusions from the fact that the interior of the house, once past the octagonal room really takes on the nature of a dream, crooked corridors, indefinite vistas, fog and smoke, night instead of day, etc. I never once thought it was due to a design disconnect. The Imagineers were too good at detail for that to happen.<br /><br />If there ever was any pretense to a coherent narrative by the designers, it must be somewhere between your two versions, as there are clear points for both in the present and the original design. I do rather doubt that every aspect of the iconography or stagecraft was established to support a consistent text, and I think the experience is richer for it. The viewer uses his own experiences, memories and emotions to fill in blanks and interpret ambiguities, each individual's experience is different because there is no fixed text.<br /><br />In my opinion, the attraction will be lessened by these on-going attempts to generate a cohesive backstory for the Mansion because it will diminish my effort to understand it in my own way. <br /><br />I very much doubt that our own experiences of our afterlife-to-come will resemble in any way what we are taught by our elders, whether in churches, or watching beetlejuice. <br /><br />The fact that our lives have the meanings we make of them by living them may be the real solution to both the Mansion and existence.<br /><br />JGJGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15456196709930408585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-28409466951525258342012-05-11T12:18:53.608-07:002012-05-11T12:18:53.608-07:00Great post! I always just assumed parts of both pa...Great post! I always just assumed parts of both paradigms co-exist. But I love that knowing the Why behind it all doesn't stop you from buying it when you're a kid and filling in the blanks yourself. <br /><br />When I was little, I just assumed that things outside HM looked different than they did inside because everything scary/weird you saw inside -- from the time you walked through the door, till you exit the crypt -- was all a ghostly illusion. The lightening, the morphing architecture, the eternal stormy night outside the windows, the graveyard, all of it was spirits playing tricks on you.<br /><br />I think I'd seen "Lonesome Ghosts" too many times.Laotahttp://laotasgallery.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-60097234033972705752012-05-09T10:56:43.671-07:002012-05-09T10:56:43.671-07:00Love your site, and thanks so much for a very plau...Love your site, and thanks so much for a very plausible explanation to my original "Architectural Disconnects" post on Doombuggies.com!<br /><br />GGGCOTSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-74245045992903337332012-05-07T16:16:55.102-07:002012-05-07T16:16:55.102-07:00The Shipley-Lydecker House: What's there now ...The Shipley-Lydecker House: What's there now (slide bar to fade between photos):<br /><br />http://www.whatwasthere.com/browse.aspx#!/ll/39.283875,-76.657439/id/38719/info/sv/zoom/14/Grinning Ghosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09431989275349314467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-58598156128182982342012-05-06T18:30:39.787-07:002012-05-06T18:30:39.787-07:00GKH, you're welcome.
As for the effect you de...GKH, you're welcome.<br /><br />As for the effect you describe, that's actually been around for a long, long time, but it's frequently out of commission and a low priority to fix when it is, so consequently, it's not there more than it is there. However, I've never heard of it being in the cupola before. If that is correct, that's new.<br /><br />This is the only photo of the effect I've ever seen. As you can see, it's on the second floor, and in this case on the south side. That's more typical.<br /><br />http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/danolson/Blog%20stuff/lightinwindow.jpgHBG2https://www.blogger.com/profile/05073387557562504315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-85635829605411269732012-05-06T17:17:34.854-07:002012-05-06T17:17:34.854-07:00What an evocative post! Thank you for the meticul...What an evocative post! Thank you for the meticulous and always fascinating research you do. During the past holiday season, on one of my last visits before the Burton-esque decorations were uninstalled, I noticed something which was at least new to me if not to other regular visitors. There was, high in the cupola and visible from certain angles, the effect of a floating candle or light. It moved in a regular, slow rising and falling pattern, behind the white curtains, seen through the windows. Has this been a regular feature?GKHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06315623182773708117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-43965081079948571342012-05-06T00:14:00.898-07:002012-05-06T00:14:00.898-07:00I think all of these provide a good way to assess ...I think all of these provide a good way to assess the Mansion: if we can accept that rooms stretch, wallpaper and wood paneling sprouts faces, and that parts of the house fade away into a black void, I don't see the problem with seeing an apparently very different house on the "back" than we saw on the front.<br /><br />That black void, by the way, I've actually recently found something eerily like it in supposed reality. There is apparently an especially desolate stretch of highway up in Maine that cuts through a very dense old forest. Supposedly, an unnatural darkness is known to occassionally settle over the forest and plenty of people have driven into that darkness and not come out again. The concept of a hallway to limbo or one that goes on forever is surreal enough to link it up to things like the Bermuda Triangle, in a more popular vein, and I think that's one thing Coats drew on in conceiving the boundless void. Frankly, once we accept that line of reasoning, it's not so much further to start taking about dimensional gateways and phantom zones, to start getting into real H.P. Lovecraft / William Hope Hodgson territory. Hodgson's novel "House on the Borderland" deals with a lot of this sort of stuff.<br /><br />One thing I've never heard mentioned about the Florida version that I think is worth pointing out: Coats was apparently messing around with secret rooms and panels in the reworked version; as you know, the doors to the stretch room don't open like sliding entrance doors like in Disneyland but the whole wall slides away. The doors are designed to blend into the paneling and the paneling is as high as it is in the Florida Foyer to hide the doors.<br /><br />It's easy to see just looking at photos how this was designed to work, but Coats took it a step further: originally, that little hallway you exit out into was very very dark, and the reason was so that the exit panel could be opened during the blackout without being detected. This is how Cast Members were trained to do it for 35 years. To make sure they opened the panel during the blackout, the scream and crash sounds actually played out in that hallway; if you mistimed the panel opening the sound would be very awkward. The lights would come up and suddenly there would be a door there - it seems like it appeared out of nowhere. I know several people who continue to swear that the room used to turn: they were convinced they'd entered and exited the same door, with the rest of the ride somehow appearing out of nowhere. <br /><br />I think this is a creepy idea. There are a number of doors in the Florida foyer that could lead anywhere, perhaps to normal seeming rooms, a false front. But the Ghost Host instead opens a secret panel to a forgotten room and draws you into what feels very much like a trap.FoxxFurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00443092111956989561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4444762441887107389.post-85923941511150711482012-05-06T00:13:43.152-07:002012-05-06T00:13:43.152-07:00This is superb.
There's a few things touched ...This is superb.<br /><br />There's a few things touched on here that I've always thought were key conceptions about the Haunted Mansion, and one of these is the concept of renovation. There's not really a strong implication of it in Disneyland, but to me the Florida house looks strongly renovated... gothic brick and wrought iron may look pleasing at first glance, but architecturally it's all wrong, and furthermore, why is there a bat on the weathervane and the trellaces look like little people and spiders (or faces, when you look at it another way?) The ghosts have already started to warp our perception of the house, and that's why it's okay to have the ghostly wolf howl outside the Florida house but it would be (in my mind at least) unimaginable outside the California house. The Florida house also rests on a foundation that's visually inconsistent with the rest of the Mansion, and although it's mainly there to help the forced perspective work, it looks much older than the gothic revival house sitting on it. So depending on how you look at it, you've got a house that looks like a tomb from one era sitting on a foundation from another era (did the original house burn down? Or was it there when the colonists arrived?) that's then got decorations and interior design from a third era.<br /><br />In the load area of the Florida show, with its massive hall, minimal decoration and huge funeral urns, the impression of extreme antiquity is very strongly conveyed. This house isn't just old, it's somehow also ancient.<br /><br />The other concept is that spirits can warp our perception of physical space, which is very much in play in the Mansion. There's the idea that they disregard current physical arrangements; one of my favorite stories here is a Hessian soldier who was often seen walking below the floor level because the colonial house's floor had been raised. There's also the "vanishing room" concept; Room 13 is a fantastic example and there's also the appearing/disappearing rooms of Glamis castle in Scotland, which could contain the remains of an heir to the throne, or a Duke playing cards with Satan till doomsday, or something even worse. There's an even better actual example that I know of: The Old Brick Capitol in Washington DC, which was so haunted that it actually sometimes re-appears, occupants and all, despite having been demolished one hundred years ago.FoxxFurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00443092111956989561noreply@blogger.com